The Great Depression 2: Depression Harder

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

No offense Kits, but have you ever considered that maybe you two shouldn't have bought the house yet?

he bought it before we got married and didn't have any plans for relationships. i inherited the two mortgages.

[Andy 60]

i inherited the two mortgages.

Lucky you, huh? :p

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

oh yeah. being an adult really sucks sometimes.

[Andy 60]

I had a credit card application refused yesterday... Grr! Oh well.

[Ayingel 24]

Thoughts? I'm admittedly not as up to speed on this particular issue as I should be, but I will say this:

That damned socialist, President Bush, is using our hard earned tax money to bail out corporations. It's only a matter of time before we go from being America, to Communerica! Am I right??? Let the free market decide if we lose all of our money or not!

*Chickenman probably knows even less about the economy now than he did at the beginning of this post.

Aaactually, democrats are closer to socialism that any republicans (tho i hate bush the dictator that he is) because true republican and conservative values are closer to anarchy.

just had to get it out there.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ayingel

[Chickenman 9]

My first two posts were 200% sarcasm, Ayingel. Trying to refute the other side's position by throwing it back at them with an unrealistic amount of exaggeration and all.

I find it amusing that a man who ran on the platform that big government is evil and interfering with our lives is now using the federal government's money to buy controlling shares in corporations.

[Ayingel 24]

sorry, it just kinda bothers me to see stuff like that...so uninformed....

and robert and i were just talking about this...we'd do better if they'd just give everyone a check to pay off their mortgages instead of just bailing out these companies. it'd be cheaper. and better. minus the annoying people who wouldn't have any mortgages who would complain about having to pay for it with their taxes. but in the long run it would be cheaper just to pay those taxes than to pay the taxes for this bailing out business.

[Ender 8]

So, Roguels, all that deficit spending that Reagan did in the 80's that put us billions in the hole didn't have anything to do with an economic crisis? After having a rather nice and large surplus during the Clinton years, the fact that George Bush has once again pissed away enough money to put us half a trillion in debt isn't an economic issue? Yeah, it's all the Democrats' fault.

And please, don't put that down as an endorsement of the Clintons. I think they are loathsome, despicable excuses for human beings, but fact is that this country was prosperous while they were in.

[TheUnknown 39]

I am still convinced the real Ender is locked away in a closet somewhere or has been taken over by body snatchers...:p

[Chickenman 9]

sorry, it just kinda bothers me to see stuff like that...so uninformed....

What's uninformed? I was being sarcastic. Trust me, I know the parties' respective philosophies.

I am still convinced the real Ender is locked away in a closet somewhere or has been taken over by body snatchers...

Haha. People change their political views over time. It's the ones who don't that frighten me.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

And please, don't put that down as an endorsement of the Clintons. I think they are loathsome, despicable excuses for human beings, but fact is that this country was prosperous while they were in.

and what did he cut funding to in order to get the debt down? and as much as i despise the man, he did at least try to eliminate welfare moochers by imposing a time limit and a requirement to be "actively seeking employment." it was a good start, but that "actively seeking employment" needs more regulation. IIRC, the only requirement is they have to turn in so many applications a month/year/whatever and the manager has to sign the apps. i think it would be a good idea to have the managers interview those applicants and document why they would or wouldn't hire them. there would then be a record, and if after a certain amount of time, the applicant isn't trying to better their chance of getting a job (ie, school, wear appropriate clothing to the interview, ect), then they loose their government check.

[Tsl 7]

With the amount of debt this country is in, both with the national deficit and with everyone and their cousins in massive personal debt (be it credit cards or mortgages they had no business getting), this country's economy is going to go nowhere fast no matter how much money the gov't throws around. Where do people think this gov't bail out is going to come from? Taxpayers and/or the US taking out another IOU and adding to the massive debt it already owes itself. The hole keeps getting deeper. This country is screwed.

[Chickenman 9]

You know, with all the money the country's lost with tax cuts, and the war, and now these bailouts we're not going to be able to afford those social programs that Bush and his ilk hate so much.

Interesting.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

maybe that was the idea all along? *cue conspiracy groups*

[Chickenman 9]

It's hard not to sound like a conspiracy theorist around this administration. Rationale for the war, wiretapping and the Patriot Act, etc.

I try to talk to my friends about politics and I end up in grassy knoll territory.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

i don't think we'll ever know the whole truth.

[Chickenman 9]

Hopefully we can get more court orders like the one they gave to Cheney, saying they can't destroy certain important records.

I mean, they'll destroy them anyway, but it's the principle of the thing.

[Princess 35]

And Washington Mutual was shut down by the government and sold to JP Morgan Chase

[Rogue Lead 0]

he bought it before we got married and didn't have any plans for relationships. i inherited the two mortgages.

That does sucketh muchly...

So, Roguels, all that deficit spending that Reagan did in the 80's that put us billions in the hole didn't have anything to do with an economic crisis? After having a rather nice and large surplus during the Clinton years, the fact that George Bush has once again pissed away enough money to put us half a trillion in debt isn't an economic issue? Yeah, it's all the Democrats' fault.

Well as you say...the deficit spending done by Reagan was erased by the Clinton years (actually by the tax cuts done by Reagon and further aided by the '94 Republican Congress that forced Clinton to sign reform bills). And the deficit run up by Bush and the Democrat-lite Republican Congress has 0 to do with the housing bubble that caused this current crisis.

Want to see the figures yourself...fine, watch this...it's 10 min long and the first 8 min or so are quite worth it.

[Chickenman 9]

You conservatives have a funny thing about placing the blame/criticism on a president's predecessor, rather than himself.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

so are you one of the ones who blames Hoover for the first Depression instead of Coolidge, who was the one who allowed the shoddy financial practices that lead up to it? i'm not saying current Presidents can't cause messes. but sometimes the mess is not entirely his doing.

[Mara 29]

Yeah, I don't think we got instantaneously bad in the last 4-8 years.

Not saying Bush isn't at least partially responsible; but he's not wholly.

[Rogue Lead 0]

I have no problem blaming a President for something that's undeniably his. For example, Bush inherited a recession from Clinton...it started after he'd been in office for around 2 months...he hadn't had time to get his economic policy to Congress, to say nothing of it having any effect.

Now the debt the country is in is undeniably his. It was his non-use of the veto pen for the Republican Congress (Democrat-lite) spending spree as well as the wars that caused it.

However, the record revenues the treasury department have been recieving are also his are also undeniably his...his tax cuts are responsible for them.

This house crisis is not Bush's fault...you can lay some blame on him not trying hard enough, but that is it.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Rogue Lead

[Chickenman 9]

No, I find that Coolidge and Hoover both did a shoddy job of handling the thing.

And sure, Presidents have to deal with the messes that their predecessor leaves behind, no questioning that. But you can't blame the economic death spiral of the past eight years on the guy who came before. You're saying the past eight years, Bush did absolutely nothing to hinder or help our economy? In eight years? We haven't seen any effect? You'd think that if Bush inherited a sleeper cell economy that waited until the new president was in before imploding, Bush, clearly being a better economic policy maker than Clinton, would have, after eight years, would have either been able to stop the death spiral, or, seeing as it's been eight years even turn it around. If anyone thinks that the current state of the economy is entirely Clinton's fault, they are a fool.

It's also interesting that the only reason Clinton had a economic boom was because of Reagan. I mean clearly. The economy doesn't show the effects of the President's policies until one or even two Presidents have passed through. Even with a president who uses the economy as his main campaign issue, (like Clinton and Reagan), their policies won't have a single effect until their term is over. Makes sense.

Every single Democrat has run a more successful economy than every single Republican since the Great Depression. (I'm basing this off of job creation, though if I could unlazy myself, I'm sure I could find correlating data on other categories) This leads me to believe, for some reason, that the Democrats know how run the economy better than the Republicans. If you believe every single one of those Democrats is really profiting off of his Republican predecessor, and that every single Republican was unfairly burdened by his Democratic predecessor's policies, I sincerely hope you're not planning on voting this election.

By the way, Hoover and Coolidge, the guys we mentioned at the beginning of this post? Not to mention Warren G. Harding before them, often cited as the worst president ever (no offense to Mr. W. Bush)? Republicans.

[Rogue Lead 0]

You'd think that if Bush inherited a sleeper cell economy that waited until the new president was in before imploding, Bush, clearly being a better economic policy maker than Clinton, would have, after eight years, would have either been able to stop the death spiral, or, seeing as it's been eight years even turn it around.

You mean like his and other Republican efforts to fix Fannie May and Freddie Mac in 2003 and 2005, efforts that were blocked by Democrats don't count as attempting to "stop the death spiral"?

Every single Democrat has run a more successful economy than every single Republican since the Great Depression

Yeah, that Carter malaysie was awesome economically...

(I'm basing this off of job creation, though if I could unlazy myself, I'm sure I could find correlating data on other categories)

The Bush is a better President than Clinton, during his term unemployment, until recently had either equal to or been lower than the best years of Clinton and the 90s....using your metrics here.

By the way, Hoover and Coolidge, the guys we mentioned at the beginning of this post? Not to mention Warren G. Harding before them, often cited as the worst president ever (no offense to Mr. W. Bush)? Republicans.

You're forgetting Carter...Democrat. Arguably the worst President in modern history.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Rogue Lead