The Religion/Philosophy Debate

[Drake 53]

See, I completely disagree with you there. You say he hates sin; well, I think he's just an intolerant, masochistic, misogynistic brute. I don't care that it was written in an older time; slavery is NEVER okay. Particularly selling your DAUGHTER into sexual slavery could never, ever be considered allowable, by any stretch of the imagination. What kind of nerfherder orders his followers to kill their children (Abraham and Isaac), which are, if they're decent and loving parents, their pride and joy? Not any kind of merciful being.

Have you even read the Bible or any commentary on it except for incredibly pro-Atheist dogma? You seem to have a disturbingly twisted view of what happened. The term "slavery", back then, was not as it is today. It was more like indentured servitude. Jews would often become slave/servants until a debt was paid off or seven years was up. Women were hardly sold into "sexual slavery", though I will admit that treatment of women was far from what it is today. That said, try reading the Book of Ruth or Esther. Read about Deborah in the Book of Judges. All powerful women.

Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind." God is above time and therefore knows all of the choices that we can make. In regards to Abraham, God was testing his faith. He had no intention of letting Abraham kill Isaac. There were two possible outcomes: either Abraham would wimp out or God would step in to stop him.

[Drake 53]

I have a query about Intelligent Design, if one of you could serve my curiosity for a moment:

If the innate intricacy or brilliance of something suggests it was "created", why does that rule not apply to God himself? Why does he not have a higher power?

God has no creator. He is above our concept of time. In fact, He created it. He always was and always will be. It's about as difficult to grasp as the Trinity thing.

That gets into some fairly deep doctrine. And yet again, I'm basing this on my particular religion since it's what I know.

This cycle of coming to a world, being tested, and then eternally rewarded is eternal and neverending. As man is, God once was, and as God is, man can become. The highest level of exaltation is Godhood.

And that, JM, is another difference between Christianity and Mormonism. I believe that God always was God and there is and ever will be only one God. He was never a man from another planet and we will never become gods of other planets. That is self-exaltation (thinking one can become a god, is greater than God, is a god, etc.) and is the reason why Satan was booted from Heaven. This is also the problem with many New Age philosophies.

I should take this opportunity to say that many Christian denominations differ slightly on the details of what we're discussing. Personally, I don't belong to any denomination. My church is what's called a New Testament Church. We follow the model established by the first church in the Book of Acts, rather than having a government body like most denominations.

In my belief, believers will spend eternity with God and each other. Not just in Heaven either, but on a new Earth that will be created when the old passes away after the Final Judgement. There will be no sickness or sorrow or sin and death (death being the result to man's initial sin), only singing and dancing and parties forever.

[Drake 53]

Oh snap! Triple post!

I'm changing the title of this thread since it has evolved beyond its original state. Haha, irony! :p

[Chickenman 9]

But Ender's right. Lot gave up his two virgin daughters to be raped by a crowd of men (and somehow still gets to be the only decent man in Sodom), and God did force a man to make the agonizing decision to kill his son, and that man went trough with it. The fact that he then pulled a "gotcha" on him doesn't suddenly make eveything okay. That is honestly the cruelest and most despicable way to treat someone I can think of. And I can think of some pretty despicable sith. And all so God can say "Aww, you really DO love me!!!" You're all powerful dude, you don't need the ego boost.

And the Bible is full of sith like that. Stoning a child for being disobedient? It's sick sith like that that makes me unable to see that work as a moral guide by any stretch of the imagination.

And for the record, while indentured servitude was indeed a kind of slavery back then, it wasn't the ONLY form of slavery by a long stretch. And he makes no distinction between acceptable and nonacceptable slavery, just explains how to treat your slaves better.

[Andy 60]

only singing and dancing and parties forever.

Damn, I'm going to hate it.

[Uncle Du 22]

In reading the quotes that Ender posted, these are all Old Testament verses. Now, it's been a very long time since I've been in the Bible, but I believe Jesus stated that He "fulfilled the word." This was in response to accusations that he was breaking covenants written in the Old Testament. Jesus himself, as a human, saw these writings and disagreed with them, even though He (not as a human) was responsible for their being written.

And just to clarify, Ender, are you an Athiest? Because when you said, "I think he's just an intolerant, masochistic, misogynistic brute," it sound like you believe in God, you just don't like him. ;)

[Princess 35]

See, here's the thing I see that people forget with every translation of the Bible. The Bible is the word of God written by the hand of man. Throughout the years there have been changes to the Bible and it's easy for people to interpret things the way that they want to, as has been witnessed here, by taking verses out of context in order to keep the followers under control and thinking the way that the religious leaders want them to think.

[Drake 53]

But Ender's right. Lot gave up his two virgin daughters to be raped by a crowd of men (and somehow still gets to be the only decent man in Sodom), and God did force a man to make the agonizing decision to kill his son, and that man went trough with it. The fact that he then pulled a "gotcha" on him doesn't suddenly make eveything okay. That is honestly the cruelest and most despicable way to treat someone I can think of. And I can think of some pretty despicable sith. And all so God can say "Aww, you really DO love me!!!" You're all powerful dude, you don't need the ego boost.

I've gone over the Lot business before. Lot was definitely not a decent man. Every Christian knows that. The only reason he and his family were spared was because Abraham asked God to spare him because he was family. God kept His word and Abraham's descendants eventually suffered the consequences of that decision. After the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his "virgin" daughters hid in a cave. The daughters conspired to get him drunk so they could sleep with him (clearly, they were innocent young virgin girls). As a result, they gave birth to two sons and named them Moab and Ammon. Those children eventually fathered the Moabite and Ammonite nations: nations which were constant enemies of the descendants of Abraham.

And you're continuing to think in a 21st century mindset instead of looking at the verses in the context that they were originally written in. When Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, Isaac was an adult. He knew full well what his father had been told to do and even assisted and encouraged Abraham when his father faltered. You may continue to see God as cruel and despicable but, you should remember, He sent His Son to be sacrificed. This story is meant to be a foreshadowing of Christ's death. As the ram was a substitute for Isaac, so was Jesus a substitute for humanity. You have to look at the bigger picture, sometimes, in order to understand why God does these things.

See, here's the thing I see that people forget with every translation of the Bible. The Bible is the word of God written by the hand of man. Throughout the years there have been changes to the Bible and it's easy for people to interpret things the way that they want to, as has been witnessed here, by taking verses out of context in order to keep the followers under control and thinking the way that the religious leaders want them to think.

Partially true. The modern translations of the Holy Bible are directly translated from Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. They have since been cross-checked with earlier documents, such as a the Dead Sea Scrolls, and found to be strikingly accurate. Many cults and offshoot religions of Christianity change, add, and subtract things from the Bible to suit their agendas. The Catholic Church has also done that many times throughout history. I'll also admit that Protestant Christians do the same. Perhaps not to the extent of actually changing the Bible but I've seen it get taken out of context many times. It's quite easy to do if you don't know that you're doing it.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Drake

[CorSec 5]

God has no creator. He is above our concept of time. In fact, He created it. He always was and always will be. It's about as difficult to grasp as the Trinity thing.

I find this answer inadequate. Granted, that's often the case with this kind of discussion, but I hope you understand why this makes Intelligent Design a poor argument for the existence of God. If ID suggests that the beauty or complexity of the natural world cannot be explained without an infinitely complex higher power; I would immediately wonder how that power could exist naturally without its own creator. Following the logic of ID, I could argue that God's creator was Fred, because the sheer brilliance of God could not simply be, it had to be made.

I'm not trying to disprove the existence of these kind of beings, but I find ID to be a weak argument for the existence of them.

[Chickenman 9]

If you see a building, would you not believe that there was a builder? If you saw a painting, would you not think that there was a painter? How can you see creation and not believe that there was a Creator?

But where did the builder and the painter come from? They were always there, you silly goose!

If you saw a builder, would you not believe that that builder's parents had a little too much wine at the office Christmas party and passed out on top of each other in the copier room, resulting in a beautiful baby boy and years of child support payments? (The miracle of creation!)

But Ender's right. Lot gave up his two virgin daughters to be raped by a crowd of men (and somehow still gets to be the only decent man in Sodom), and God did force a man to make the agonizing decision to kill his son, and that man went trough with it. The fact that he then pulled a "gotcha" on him doesn't suddenly make eveything okay. That is honestly the cruelest and most despicable way to treat someone I can think of. And I can think of some pretty despicable sith. And all so God can say "Aww, you really DO love me!!!" You're all powerful dude, you don't need the ego boost.

I've gone over the Lot business before. Lot was definitely not a decent man. Every Christian knows that. The only reason he and his family were spared was because Abraham asked God to spare him because he was family. God kept His word and Abraham's descendants eventually suffered the consequences of that decision. After the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his "virgin" daughters hid in a cave. The daughters conspired to get him drunk so they could sleep with him (clearly, they were innocent young virgin girls). As a result, they gave birth to two sons and named them Moab and Ammon. Those children eventually fathered the Moabite and Ammonite nations: nations which were constant enemies of the descendants of Abraham.

Whether they were innocent virgins or deviants who raped their father, no one deserves mass rape.

And I love that Lot is spared because he has connections. Every other inhabitant of that city had a family too. It's insane to think that every single man, woman and child was was such a fundamentally evil person as to be put to death. Especially given their "sins." Sex and being uncharitable to people that need help. Granted, some of that sex was rape, but no matter how horrifying the sin, two cities full of people do not deserve mass execution while one man and his family escape because he knows a guy who knows a guy. Please.

And you're continuing to think in a 21st century mindset instead of looking at the verses in the context that they were originally written in. When Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son, Isaac was an adult. He knew full well what his father had been told to do and even assisted and encouraged Abraham when his father faltered. You may continue to see God as cruel and despicable but, you should remember, He sent His Son to be sacrificed. This story is meant to be a foreshadowing of Christ's death. As the ram was a substitute for Isaac, so was Jesus a substitute for humanity. You have to look at the bigger picture, sometimes, in order to understand why God does these things.

Whether or not his son agreed with him is irrelevant. So the kid (sorry, "adult") blindly believed whatever his father would say. Obviously his critical thinking was at the time compromised by blind love. Stockholm syndrome, really.

The fact that he was an "adult" and not a "child" means nothing. Back then, and even today in the Jewish faith, an adult was considered, what, 13? Did you have your convictions about what you were willing to die for at age 13? In any case, adult, child, infant, senior citizen, it doesn't matter. He's still the man's son. God damn it (pun intended), no matter what age someone becomes, they're always their parent's son. God's actions here are so indescribably cruel and despicable, to play with someone's emotions like that, is unfathomable, and I find it insane and terrifying that a book that sides with God in this situation, is the guiding moral compass of a too-large number of our nation's leaders (or at least the people who vote for them).

If anything, to use my friend's joke, it makes God seem like a spoiled middle school girl. "Do you love me? Prove it! Ohmigod, you DO love me!"

And as for it being a metaphor for Jesus' death, that still doesn't make it any better. If God wants to kill his own son in order to stop himself from mass murdering people over trivial matters like masturbation (SO glad I'm not Onan.) and forgetting to give to charity, that's his own prerogative, and more importantly, that's his own choice. But he forced Abraham to do this.

But, you know. Whatevers.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

Nobody forced Abraham to do anything. Abraham had the choice to say no, but because of his faith, he didn't. We ALL have the freedom in the end to choose our actions. At times we may feel that we are being forced to make one choice over another, but in the end we decide.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

And that, JM, is another difference between Christianity and Mormonism. I believe that God always was God and there is and ever will be only one God. He was never a man from another planet and we will never become gods of other planets. That is self-exaltation (thinking one can become a god, is greater than God, is a god, etc.) and is the reason why Satan was booted from Heaven. This is also the problem with many New Age philosophies.

I'm curious then as to your interpretation of inheriting all that God has. That may be a purely LDS concept since I can't seem to find that terminology in the KJV Bible. Sometimes I get my references all mixed up.

[Chickenman 9]

No, he didn't hold Abraham at gunpoint or anything (Although you want to remember, the dude strikes people down for masturbating one whole time, so maybe you don't want to step on his toes.), but it was an absolutely heinous position to put the guy in. Your god, or your son. Either way, you lose something more important to you than anything in the world. I mean, all the weight of that choice is taken away by a quite literal Deus Ex Machina, but still.

[Princess 35]

See, here's the thing I see that people forget with every translation of the Bible. The Bible is the word of God written by the hand of man. Throughout the years there have been changes to the Bible and it's easy for people to interpret things the way that they want to, as has been witnessed here, by taking verses out of context in order to keep the followers under control and thinking the way that the religious leaders want them to think.

Partially true. The modern translations of the Holy Bible are directly translated from Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. They have since been cross-checked with earlier documents, such as a the Dead Sea Scrolls, and found to be strikingly accurate. Many cults and offshoot religions of Christianity change, add, and subtract things from the Bible to suit their agendas. The Catholic Church has also done that many times throughout history. I'll also admit that Protestant Christians do the same. Perhaps not to the extent of actually changing the Bible but I've seen it get taken out of context many times. It's quite easy to do if you don't know that you're doing it.

I'll give you that one, but because the original writers of the Bible were man, and man is flawed, there is a chance for error. Many of the Gospels and the books of the New Testament were written many many years after the death of Jesus, and honestly, how accurate is your memory after 5 or 10 years?

[Princess 35]

No, he didn't hold Abraham at gunpoint or anything (Although you want to remember, the dude strikes people down for masturbating one whole time, so maybe you don't want to step on his toes.), but it was an absolutely heinous position to put the guy in. Your god, or your son. Either way, you lose something more important to you than anything in the world. I mean, all the weight of that choice is taken away by a quite literal Deus Ex Machina, but still.

God gave man free will. We can do what He wants us to do or we can do what we want to do. That is why Adam and Eve ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree in Genesis.

[Chickenman 9]

See, here's the thing I see that people forget with every translation of the Bible. The Bible is the word of God written by the hand of man. Throughout the years there have been changes to the Bible and it's easy for people to interpret things the way that they want to, as has been witnessed here, by taking verses out of context in order to keep the followers under control and thinking the way that the religious leaders want them to think.

Partially true. The modern translations of the Holy Bible are directly translated from Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. They have since been cross-checked with earlier documents, such as a the Dead Sea Scrolls, and found to be strikingly accurate. Many cults and offshoot religions of Christianity change, add, and subtract things from the Bible to suit their agendas. The Catholic Church has also done that many times throughout history. I'll also admit that Protestant Christians do the same. Perhaps not to the extent of actually changing the Bible but I've seen it get taken out of context many times. It's quite easy to do if you don't know that you're doing it.

I'll give you that one, but because the original writers of the Bible were man, and man is flawed, there is a chance for error. Many of the Gospels and the books of the New Testament were written many many years after the death of Jesus, and honestly, how accurate is your memory after 5 or 10 years?

Scholars place the writing of the Gospel of Matthew (the first of the four gospels to be written) between 50 AD and 70 AD. So at least 17 years to a maximum of 37 years after Jesus bit the big one. So yeah, I'm sure some facts were fudged to say the least.

No, he didn't hold Abraham at gunpoint or anything (Although you want to remember, the dude strikes people down for masturbating one whole time, so maybe you don't want to step on his toes.), but it was an absolutely heinous position to put the guy in. Your god, or your son. Either way, you lose something more important to you than anything in the world. I mean, all the weight of that choice is taken away by a quite literal Deus Ex Machina, but still.

God gave man free will. We can do what He wants us to do or we can do what we want to do. That is why Adam and Eve ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree in Genesis.

Once again, you're missing the point that God put him in that impossible position in the first place. That in itself is the cruel the cruel thing.

And going back to Onan (cause it's hilarious, and yes I know it wasn't actually masturbation, it was the pull-out method.) the dude used his "free will" and got killed for it. It's not "free will" when you're holding the pain of death or an eternity of agony in Hell over their heads. (Hell, to my knowledge, Onan didn't even know what he was doing was wrong, because he didn't have the story of Onan to look to.)

[Princess 35]

But God in the Old Testament is described as a vengeful God. When He sent His son to us, Jesus described Him as a loving and forgiving God as long as you prayed and asked forgiveness for your sins, than eternal paradise awaits you.

[Chickenman 9]

Well, if you follow Drake's explanation, which is really the only one I've come across that makes sense*, it's not so much that God stopped being a dick, it's just that Jesus spares us from the dickishness because of his sacrifice. (Obviously, obviously paraphrasing here.)

To follow your explanation though, he simply turned a new leaf for the sequel.

Or, it's just bad writing.

*Loose definition of sense here. In the context of the mythology, I meant.

[Princess 35]

But even in the Old Testament, God can be seen as forgiving. Take the Great Flood for example. God was going to destroy the earth for the wickedness of man, but when Noah found grace with God, God decided to spare Noah, his family, and 2 of each animals. When the flood was over God made a covenant to man to never cover the entire earth with water again.

[Chickenman 9]

Which is all fine and dandy after the fact, but millions of people faced an agonizing drowning death. The fact that God created a rainbow and pinky promised not to genocide all of civilization again doesn't suddenly make all of those deaths suddenly not matter.

And for the record, you're not being merciful and forgiving when you decide not to engage in worldwide genocide. I mean, look at me, I've never killed anyone in my life. I'm so compassionate.

Also, again, God handpicks one family to save from devestation, not caring that all of those people had families too. Well, not anymore. But they did.

And let us not forget the animals he didn't bring on the arc. Let us bow our heads in silence for the fallen Dinosaurs.

[Princess 35]

Now you're just resorting to sarcasm...

[Chickenman 9]

I'm not "resorting" to anything. I speak fluent sarcasm. Satire is an incredibly useful tool in debate. I'm not retreating, I'm using my primary weapons.

And, this started out as a thread debating evolution, and Young Earthers do need to account for the dinosaurs somehow. I've heard theories that the bones were placed there by God to test our faith, that the dinosaurs drowned in the flood (also when the Grand Canyon was carved out) and that pictures of dragons on the Bhuttanese flag and medievel myths about dragons are actually evidence that dinosaurs lived among man.

[Radioactive Isotope 29]

Personally I think the dinosars came from a different world that ended up as the "matter unorganized" used to create this world.

[Chickenman 9]

There's another theory. :p

[Drake 53]

Whether they were innocent virgins or deviants who raped their father, no one deserves mass rape.

And I love that Lot is spared because he has connections. Every other inhabitant of that city had a family too. It's insane to think that every single man, woman and child was was such a fundamentally evil person as to be put to death. Especially given their "sins." Sex and being uncharitable to people that need help. Granted, some of that sex was rape, but no matter how horrifying the sin, two cities full of people do not deserve mass execution while one man and his family escape because he knows a guy who knows a guy. Please.

It is insane to think that, isn't it? It may seem insane to kill off kids but that's how it happened...and I'll tell you why. Abraham asked God to spare the cities if He could find 50 righteous people. God said yes. Eventually, Abraham whittled that number down to ten and God agreed. In five cities (not just Sodom and Gomorrah), God couldn't find even ten. I doubt He could have found one. Heck, Lot was probably the most righteous, in comparison.

Okay. Picture the the most deviant sexual perversions. I doubt it's a stretch for you...pervert . Now that was pretty much the lifestyle in those cities. Many of these pagan nations would sacrifice their children in blood orgies and a lot of the children were probably in on it, being raised that way. I believe you mention Stockholm Syndrome in your next statement.... Anyway, God (being above and beyond time) saw the potential future the children of these cities would have and knew that they would not choose to change their ways.

I'm curious then as to your interpretation of inheriting all that God has. That may be a purely LDS concept since I can't seem to find that terminology in the KJV Bible. Sometimes I get my references all mixed up.

We have an inheritance with God, yes, but we don't inherit all that he has. We do not progress to godhood. He bestows the saints (Christian believers) with gifts (in life, both physical and spiritual) and, if we use those gifts for His glory, instead of our own, we will receive that glory back in Heaven.

I'll give you that one, but because the original writers of the Bible were man, and man is flawed, there is a chance for error. Many of the Gospels and the books of the New Testament were written many many years after the death of Jesus, and honestly, how accurate is your memory after 5 or 10 years?

You said it before, "The Bible is the word of God written by the hand of man." This is exactly true. However, you're saying that the writers are only writing from their own memory. This is not true. The Word was written by man but authored and inspired by God. In a sense, He wrote through them. He didn't take over their hands to write for them, like some people seem to think, but He put the thoughts in their mind of what He wanted them to write. This is why the Bible, written by 40 different people over 1600 years in three different languages without any collaboration, contains no contradictions.