The Religion/Philosophy Debate

[Princess 35]

And, this started out as a thread debating evolution, and Young Earthers do need to account for the dinosaurs somehow. I've heard theories that the bones were placed there by God to test our faith, that the dinosaurs drowned in the flood (also when the Grand Canyon was carved out) and that pictures of dragons on the Bhuttanese flag and medievel myths about dragons are actually evidence that dinosaurs lived among man.

Genesis 1:24-25 (New International Version)

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

How long is a day to God? Creatures that move along the ground could possibly be the dinosaurs. I've heard a theory before that if the 4th and 5th days were reversed than creationism mirrors evolution. God creating the large and small creatures. For someone who is timeless, a day could be a millenia for God.

[Drake 53]

Okay, now to dinosaurs...

Do I believe that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth at the same time or that God just put them there for us as a test? I don't know either way. The Bible doesn't reveal a whole lot on the matter either. The only verse that describes something like a dinosaur is found in Job 40:15-19:

15 "Look at the behemoth,

which I made along with you

and which feeds on grass like an ox.

16 What strength he has in his loins,

what power in the muscles of his belly!

17 His tail sways like a cedar;

the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

18 His bones are tubes of bronze,

his limbs like rods of iron.

19 He ranks first among the works of God,

yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

The Book of Job was the first written Book of the Bible. It was written approximately 2000 BC whereas Genesis was written as early as 1450 BC. The events of Job could easily predate the Flood. Now, note the last line of the Scripture. Even though this "behemoth" was so great, it was still able to be killed off by God.

Also, the word "dinosaur" was first used in 1841. Before that, they could have been called dragons. Dragons are mentioned a number of times in the Bible.

[Chickenman 9]

Whether they were innocent virgins or deviants who raped their father, no one deserves mass rape.

And I love that Lot is spared because he has connections. Every other inhabitant of that city had a family too. It's insane to think that every single man, woman and child was was such a fundamentally evil person as to be put to death. Especially given their "sins." Sex and being uncharitable to people that need help. Granted, some of that sex was rape, but no matter how horrifying the sin, two cities full of people do not deserve mass execution while one man and his family escape because he knows a guy who knows a guy. Please.

It is insane to think that, isn't it? It may seem insane to kill off kids but that's how it happened...and I'll tell you why. Abraham asked God to spare the cities if He could find 50 righteous people. God said yes. Eventually, Abraham whittled that number down to ten and God agreed. In five cities (not just Sodom and Gomorrah), God couldn't find even ten. I doubt He could have found one. Heck, Lot was probably the most righteous, in comparison.

Okay. Picture the the most deviant sexual perversions. I doubt it's a stretch for you...pervert . Now that was pretty much the lifestyle in those cities. Many of these pagan nations would sacrifice their children in blood orgies [Citation Needed] and a lot of the children were probably in on it, being raised that way. I believe you mention Stockholm Syndrome in your next statement.... Anyway, God (being above and beyond time) saw the "potential" future the children of these cities would have and knew that they would not choose to change their ways.

Look who's doing the searching though, God himself. The only people considered good or righteous are those that follow his own word. Conflict of interest there, to say the least. He couldn't find 10 decent human beings in 5 different cities? I call bullsith.

This is why the Bible, written by 40 different people over 1600 years in three different languages without any collaboration, contains no contradictions.

Again, I call bullsith.

[Drake 53]

Find me two verses that contradict themselves, in context, then. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

And, this started out as a thread debating evolution, and Young Earthers do need to account for the dinosaurs somehow. I've heard theories that the bones were placed there by God to test our faith, that the dinosaurs drowned in the flood (also when the Grand Canyon was carved out) and that pictures of dragons on the Bhuttanese flag and medievel myths about dragons are actually evidence that dinosaurs lived among man.

Genesis 1:24-25 (New International Version)

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

How long is a day to God? Creatures that move along the ground could possibly be the dinosaurs. I've heard a theory before that if the 4th and 5th days were reversed than creationism mirrors evolution. God creating the large and small creatures. For someone who is timeless, a day could be a millenia for God.

I disagree with this. It is pandering to evolutionists. God worked in six days, not six trillion years.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Drake

[Chickenman 9]

And, this started out as a thread debating evolution, and Young Earthers do need to account for the dinosaurs somehow. I've heard theories that the bones were placed there by God to test our faith, that the dinosaurs drowned in the flood (also when the Grand Canyon was carved out) and that pictures of dragons on the Bhuttanese flag and medievel myths about dragons are actually evidence that dinosaurs lived among man.

Genesis 1:24-25 (New International Version)

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

How long is a day to God? Creatures that move along the ground could possibly be the dinosaurs. I've heard a theory before that if the 4th and 5th days were reversed than creationism mirrors evolution. God creating the large and small creatures. For someone who is timeless, a day could be a millenia for God.

I agree, that's why I specifically mentioned Young Earthers. Even when I was was a Christian I knew that that passage was poetry. I was referring to the Young Earthers that believe the universe was created in 7 24-hour days.

Okay, now to dinosaurs...

Do I believe that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth at the same time or that God just put them there for us as a test? I don't know either way. The Bible doesn't reveal a whole lot on the matter either. The only verse that describes something like a dinosaur is found in Job 40:15-19:

15 "Look at the behemoth,

which I made along with you

and which feeds on grass like an ox.

16 What strength he has in his loins,

what power in the muscles of his belly!

17 His tail sways like a cedar;

the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

18 His bones are tubes of bronze,

his limbs like rods of iron.

19 He ranks first among the works of God,

yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

The Book of Job was the first written Book of the Bible. It was written approximately 2000 BC whereas Genesis was written as early as 1450 BC. The events of Job could easily predate the Flood. Now, note the last line of the Scripture. Even though this "behemoth" was so great, it was still able to be killed off by God.

Also, the word "dinosaur" was first used in 1841. Before that, they could have been called dragons. Dragons are mentioned a number of times in the Bible.

That's actually a passage I've come across before, and I've heard the animal mentioned could be anything from a crocodile to a hippopotamus, but who knows. It doesn't necessarily describe a dinosaur. Or anything in particular.

Dragons are indeed mentioned, mostly in poetry, to my knowledge. Never as an actual thing that a human being ever saw.

And if they were a test it's a pretty odd test, requiring humanity to develop the science of paleontology and carbon dating before you could even take it. And it's not a test that proves much of anything, since Evolution is entirely compatible with Christianity, unless you're a Young Earther.

[Chickenman 9]

The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three. Ezra 2:11

The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and eight. Nehemiah 7:16

[Drake 53]

Hmm. Do crocodiles eat grass? Do hippos have tails "like a cedar"?

And carbon dating has been proven inaccurate.

[Chickenman 9]

Actually, I've heard that from Bible believers. I agree, it's not one of those things, but it could be any of a number of things. Like you said, it describes something like a dinosaur. Inasmuch as we know about dinosaur loins.

It hasn't been proven anything. It is consistent with nonradioactive dating methods. It can also be thrown off, which would be the case with any claims that it's been "disproved."

[Drake 53]

The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three. Ezra 2:11

The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and eight. Nehemiah 7:16

Ezra and Nehemiah (the Books) are thought to both be written by Ezra roughly around the same time, although Nehemiah is an uncertainty. This would lead one to believe that the numbers should be right, right? Wrong. The dates they were taken from were different. The numbers in Ezra were of the exiles returning with Zerubbabel. The numbers in Nehemiah were taken at a later date from a genealogical record as well as a public registration. There were more men of age to be counted in the time when Nehemiah took his census.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Drake

[Andy 60]

How long is a day to God? Creatures that move along the ground could possibly be the dinosaurs. I've heard a theory before that if the 4th and 5th days were reversed than creationism mirrors evolution. God creating the large and small creatures. For someone who is timeless, a day could be a millenia for God.

If I was to believe the theory that a superior being created everything, this is the take I would have on it. Mainly because it is just as plausible that someone spent millions of years perfecting the creatures of the world, as it is that someone made it all in the first place.

The idea that whole of creation happened in the space of 144 hours? I find it a little bit mad, to be honest.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Andy

[Princess 35]

Drake, question for you. Since you follow the literal interpretation of the Bible. Do you keep the sabbath by resting or do you work on Sundays?

[Drake 53]

The "Sabbath day" is not one specific day. Religion has limited it, in that regard. As Jesus said in Mark 2:27, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." In Genesis, God worked for six days and on the seventh He rested. No where does it say that He rested specifically on a Saturday or a Sunday.

All of that to answer your question. I take at least one day off during the week. Usually it's a Monday or Tuesday since I'm either at school, real work, or doing things for the church the other days.

[Ender 8]

In reading the quotes that Ender posted, these are all Old Testament verses. Now, it's been a very long time since I've been in the Bible, but I believe Jesus stated that He "fulfilled the word." This was in response to accusations that he was breaking covenants written in the Old Testament. Jesus himself, as a human, saw these writings and disagreed with them, even though He (not as a human) was responsible for their being written.

And just to clarify, Ender, are you an Athiest? Because when you said, "I think he's just an intolerant, masochistic, misogynistic brute," it sound like you believe in God, you just don't like him.

Yes, I am an Atheist. Perhaps I spoke poorly.

But God in the Old Testament is described as a vengeful God. When He sent His son to us, Jesus described Him as a loving and forgiving God as long as you prayed and asked forgiveness for your sins, than eternal paradise awaits you.

Jesus, despite The Golden Rule and all the other quite excellent teachings he had, he was quite the angry guy too. He said that anybody that didn't believe in his divinity would die by the sword. His followers had to cast off their families and everyone they knew. It goes on.

Okay, now to dinosaurs...

Do I believe that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth at the same time or that God just put them there for us as a test? I don't know either way. The Bible doesn't reveal a whole lot on the matter either. The only verse that describes something like a dinosaur is found in Job 40:15-19:

15 "Look at the behemoth,

which I made along with you

and which feeds on grass like an ox.

16 What strength he has in his loins,

what power in the muscles of his belly!

17 His tail sways like a cedar;

the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

18 His bones are tubes of bronze,

his limbs like rods of iron.

19 He ranks first among the works of God,

yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

The Book of Job was the first written Book of the Bible. It was written approximately 2000 BC whereas Genesis was written as early as 1450 BC. The events of Job could easily predate the Flood. Now, note the last line of the Scripture. Even though this "behemoth" was so great, it was still able to be killed off by God.

Also, the word "dinosaur" was first used in 1841. Before that, they could have been called dragons. Dragons are mentioned a number of times in the Bible.

Except that the last dinosaurs lived 60 million years ago.

Find me two verses that contradict themselves, in context, then. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

Let's start at the beginning then, shall we?

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image…. So God created man in his own image." Genesis 1:25-27

Just one chapter later...

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them…. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:18-22

Continuing on...

"For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods." 1 Chronicles 16:25 - This completely contradicts, to name a few passages, Deuteronomy 4:35, 1 Kings 18:39, and Isaiah 45:5-6, in which it is stated that there is only one God. Many other passages say there's a single God, and others which mention multiple, like Exodus 12:12, Joshua 24:14, and 1 Samuel 28:13.

Chronicles is FULL of contradictions, dozens of them. But since they're all the family line passages, I'd really rather not copy them.

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." 1 Corinthians 12:31 - Doesn't the 10th Commandment say not to covet worldly goods?

More genealogy; every one of the Gospels gives a different number of generations from Abraham to Jesus. Matthew actually gives two different figures.

I could go on for a very long time. But I want to eat dinner sometime in the near future, so I'm not going to.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Ender

[Drake 53]

Let's start at the beginning then, shall we?

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image…. So God created man in his own image." Genesis 1:25-27

Just one chapter later...

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them…. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:18-22

A failing of the English language is that it is quite limited when compared with Hebrew or Greek. One English word can have several different Hebrew/Greek words translated to it. Chapter 1 goes over the full Creation in a general overview. On the sixth day, God created "man", meaning mankind. Yes, he created more people than Adam and Eve. No, everyone didn't spawn from the incestuous couplings of Adam and Eve's children. Moving on.

In chapter 2 it clearly says, in verse 4-8, that God created "the man" (reading from the NIV translation), meaning Adam.

Genesis 2:4-8: "...When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed."

Verse 8 says that God planted a garden. This is different than the flora He created on the third day.

"For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods." 1 Chronicles 16:25 - This completely contradicts, to name a few passages, Deuteronomy 4:35, 1 Kings 18:39, and Isaiah 45:5-6, in which it is stated that there is only one God. Many other passages say there's a single God, and others which mention multiple, like Exodus 12:12, Joshua 24:14, and 1 Samuel 28:13.

There is only one real God. The "gods" referred to here are the idols worshipped by other nations as well as any lifestyle that exalts itself above God. Hence the capitalization: God versus god.

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." 1 Corinthians 12:31 - Doesn't the 10th Commandment say not to covet worldly goods?

Good thing it's not talking about worldly goods then. The title of the chapter, in modern translations, is "Spiritual Gifts" and they have more accurately translated the Greek word to "desire" (remember what I said about each word having several meanings, unless in context).

More genealogy; every one of the Gospels gives a different number of generations from Abraham to Jesus. Matthew actually gives two different figures.

"Every one of the Gospels" meaning just Matthew and Luke, of course. Mark and John don't have genealogies. Regardless, this is commonly questioned. Matthew was tracing back through Joseph's family, from David's son Solomon, while Luke traced back through Mary's, from David's son Nathan. Why is Joseph mentioned in both, you ask? Jewish culture, as you well know, preferred the males. There was also no Greek word for “son-in-law,” and Joseph would have been considered a son of Heli through marrying Heli's daughter Mary.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Drake

[Ender 8]

Let's start at the beginning then, shall we?

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image…. So God created man in his own image." Genesis 1:25-27

Just one chapter later...

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them…. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:18-22

A failing of the English language is that it is quite limited when compared with Hebrew or Greek. One English word can have several different Hebrew/Greek words translated to it. Chapter 1 goes over the full Creation in a general overview. On the sixth day, God created "man", meaning mankind. Yes, he created more people than Adam and Eve. No, everyone didn't spawn from the incestuous couplings of Adam and Eve's children. Moving on.

In chapter 2 it clearly says, in verse 4-8, that God created "the man" (reading from the NIV translation), meaning Adam.

Genesis 2:4-8: "...When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed."

Verse 8 says that God planted a garden. This is different than the flora He created on the third day.

That wasn't my point at all. My point is that there are two entirely different creation stories within a few pages of one another.

[Drake 53]

Ah yes. Sorry, it seems I forgot to complete my explanation!

Since God created Adam first (before the plants on day 3) and placed him in the Garden, as mentioned in Gen 2:4-8, the verses that later say He created the animals (day 6) for Adam to name is merely reiterating and focusing on the overview from chapter 1. It's like chapter 1 is a synopsis of the Creation while chapter 2 goes into more detail of a part of it.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Drake

[Bad furday 57]

Hey.... they had this same argument on last week's opening episode of The Real World: Washington D.C. :shifty:

[Chickenman 9]

Then perhaps we should leave this discussion to the theological scholars at The Real World. :p

[Ender 8]

Ah yes. Sorry, it seems I forgot to complete my explanation!

Since God created Adam first (before the plants on day 3) and placed him in the Garden, as mentioned in Gen 2:4-8, the verses that later say He created the animals (day 6) for Adam to name is merely reiterating and focusing on the overview from chapter 1. It's like chapter 1 is a synopsis of the Creation while chapter 2 goes into more detail of a part of it.

But Genesis 1 says that Adam came after the creation of the earth and all the plants and animals, then Eve after him. Genesis 2 says that God created Adam, then the earth and animals and such, then Eve.

[Drake 53]

You didn't read what I said in the post before that, lol.

In Hebrew, "man" in chapter 1 means something akin to "mankind". In chapter 2, it says "the man" meaning Adam. As I said, "the man", Adam, was created before the rest of "man" was on day 6.

[Bad furday 57]

Then perhaps we should leave this discussion to the theological scholars at The Real World.

They did spend 15 minutes (probably more) screaming at each other in the restaurant My shadenfreude meter was sad...no plates were smashed, and no lightsaberesque battles with knives and forks. :(

[Chickenman 9]

Ireland instates blasphemy law

This is absolutely insane.

I'll quote from the blog because it's 3:20 in the morning and if I start to vent on the subject I'll be up until 6. Besides, this guy perfectly captures my thoughts on the situation.

One wouldn't expect that kind of ridiculousness in a constitutional democracy... in the year 2010.

To say the law is an absurd anachronism is a tad bit of an understatement. This is a law that protects and prioritizes ideas and ideologies over people. Worse, it protects only one particular type of idea/belief, furthering the unfortunately widespread and rarely questioned assumption that religious beliefs, unlike other kinds of ideas and opinions, deserve automatic respect and the “right” to immunity from criticism.

This law also sets a dangerous precedent by prioritizing a religious believer’s “right” to not feel offended over the right to free speech. Remember, in this particular case, we’re talking about hurt feelings, not physical abuse or assault.

Atheist Ireland’s site explains this well:

…it is wrong in principle for a modern democratic republic to have any type of blasphemy law. Theological thought-crimes belong in the past. Religious and nonreligious people alike should be protected from harm and incitement to harm, but religious and nonreligious ideas alike should be open to any criticism. That is how human knowledge progresses. Blasphemy laws discriminate against nonreligious citizens, by protecting the fundamental beliefs of religious citizens only.

[Andy 60]

It's sounds like they tried to make a law against religious hatred, and got carried away, or worded it too vaguely and it ended up being something else entirely. How well the Blasphemy Law would work in practice remains to be seen...

[Princess 35]

It is weird, but I do get tired of the atheists trying to run the country. The US is built on primarily Christian values. No one is forcing you to believe or participate in a prayer service, so why are you working so hard to take God away from us?

[Bad furday 57]

I think prin has just unknowingly/knowingly opened up Pandora's box now. :shifty: